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- Would a digital (like facebook) intervention work?
Users discuss the possibilities and potential for interventions via the internet.
- Influence of online world on our actual lives
Users talk about how they relate to comments and criticism on content they've posted online.
Started on April 2, 2007
Ended on April 29, 2007
52 members, 958 messages
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Bigleon  |
01:58pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 1 of 21 | |
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(OH I am good, The Censor, Censored me -.-) Internet Crime How do you feel about internet Crime? Sitting at home you hit a popular "theft" engine such as "Isohunt.com" and you download a DVD that was just released. Now, Your friend susan went to Wal*mart and walked out with a Same DVD tucked in her coat. Who is the worse theif? Is it the same. Being honest, and a Theif my self, i've dl'ed my fair share of movies, songs etc. Personally I see all i did, is cleverly took 1, 0's from my fav .torrent that breaks down songs into clusters of useless numbers, sends to me, and then my computer puts pecies back together. It's like taking a finished puzzle, taking it apart, have 6 different friends mail him certain parts, and then in end he gets whole thing. Kinda werid to explain art of .torrents. But techianlly your not stealing the hole thing just very small parts of codes. Now, net lost for Media record companies since the "Free Online Downloading of Priced Merchandised began" 1% Whats has large Cooperations done to stop this thief. They Sued an 8 Year old girls, sent her to foster care and her parents to prison. Why, because she stole about 500 songs, with a 10grand fine each made up to a 5,00O,000 Dollar fine. Which of corse the lower class family could not pay. What should be done about internet crime? If we can steal music from internet and burn it to CD's Is it not same as buring a Mix tape off the radio? Sorry my argument is a little mixxed, but i'm sure the point is there. |
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rockerlizz |
02:34pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 2 of 21 | |
| Trying to stop in real life crime vs. trying to stop internet crime is just as impossible. And it's interesting to me how every internet problem always connects back to in real life problem. This is because from both versions, people are all behind it. Stealing music from the internet, or stealing Cd's from the store are the same thing. But in my opinion, from the internet, more is stolen because it is much easier and convenient. Don't forget about the Bootleggers that are in the subways, sidewalks, and stores who sell copyrighted pictures for $5 or so. Shouldn't they be arrested, too? Police do nothing about them when they spot them outside, or even inside. So, do you think sending a kid to jail for stealing should be stopped? It's all a matter of standards. | |||
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Bigleon |
02:43pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 3 of 21 | |
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I'm going to break down what you said lizz. "Trying to stop in real life crime vs. trying to stop internet crime is just as impossible. " Because it is impossible should those who get caught, have near "Cruel" punishments inflicted, to try and scare others into not doing the same. "Stealing music from the internet, or stealing Cd's from the store are the same thing. But in my opinion, from the internet, more is stolen because it is much easier and convenient." Stealing music from the store inquries you take the following: *Plastic casing *CD Itself *Paper and Such related to CD *Data on the Disk -Cd's can be translated into any format as a user so pleases, most CD's don't use "DRM" Technologies. Stealing from the Internet *1's and 0's -So, I'd say internet less is actually being "stolen" "Don't forget about the Bootleggers that are in the subways, sidewalks, and stores who sell copyrighted pictures for $5 or so." Honestly I've sold burned CD's with "stolen music" Or what most would easily claim a mix tape from "internet radio" Typically most charge for the CD, the data just happens to be there. "Shouldn't they be arrested, too? Police do nothing about them when they spot them outside, or even inside." Yes they are making profit off of copyrighted Material, they are not stealing it for their own use but making profit of it. "So, do you think sending a kid to jail for stealing should be stopped? It's all a matter of standards." Standards of what. When does it become Unjust to send a kid who typically didn't know better to foster care and their parents to prision I think what the RIAA should be on verge of "Cruel and Unusal " Punishment. What RIAA pretty much did, is sentance a kid to a life of "Hell" going in and out of familys. Is that what our justice system is intended for? |
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rockerlizz |
03:06pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 4 of 21 | |
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For future reference, please put question marks at the end of your questions. It's hard to keep up. =]So, let's see.. [["Stealing music from the internet, or stealing Cd's from the store are the same thing. But in my opinion, from the internet, more is stolen because it is much easier and convenient." Stealing music from the store inquries you take the following: *Plastic casing *CD Itself *Paper and Such related to CD *Data on the Disk ]] <-- I said, it was more convenient to steal from the net. [[-So, I'd say internet less is actually being "stolen"]] <-- Either way, stealing is stealing. [[Honestly I've sold burned CD's with "stolen music" Or what most would easily claim a mix tape from "internet radio" Typically most charge for the CD, the data just happens to be there.]] <-- Clarification, please. This seems like rationalizing.. [[Standards of what. When does it become Unjust to send a kid who typically didn't know better to foster care and their parents to prision ]] <-- I was speaking in general, not just your example. But this goes into a whole different topic of 'Parenting'. [[Is that what our justice system is intended for?]] <-- Power corrupts. The whole "Justice System" is ofcourse not to serve 'justice'. Things will always seem unfair. Everyone will always have opinions on whether or not something is good, or bad. This leads into another topic of 'Divine Right'. |
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Bigleon |
03:12pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 5 of 21 | |
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tears, * use return bar, its one big blob T_T (Honestly I've sold burned CD's with "stolen music" Or what most would easily claim a mix tape from "internet radio" Typically most charge for the CD, the data just happens to be there.) -- Clarification, please. This seems like rationalizing.. I'm asking how could the truly say I stole anything? How could they prove to me that I had done anything wrong but give a friend a CD, what happend to good old fashion sharing a movie or anything. (Standards of what. When does it become Unjust to send a kid who typically didn't know better to foster care and their parents to prision ) -- I was speaking in general, not just your example. But this goes into a whole different topic of 'Parenting'. Well does it? Because I'm talking not how the child reacts but how these large super corperations attack the small and weak, and not only are we weak but they try and cut us off at the legs. Is it right for these large companies to attack these kids for "stealing" data off the internet. (Is that what our justice system is intended for?) -- Power corrupts. The whole "Justice System" is ofcourse not to serve 'justice'. Things will always seem unfair. I'm trying to ask where is the line, when a punishment is to much for the crime. |
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Bigleon |
03:12pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 6 of 21 | |
| Nvm... it seems that there is something wrong with code, it blobbed me too. | |||
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rockerlizz |
03:37pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 7 of 21 | |
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I'm sure we've all seen the Warning labels before a movie starts. You know, it talks about how the image is copyrighted and copying any of it is illegal and a federal offense to the law, blah, blah.. That's not exactly 'sharing'. If you wanted to share, you would let your friend simply borrow the purchased item. Where the line is for 'Justice' is something I can't begin to contemplate. -Sweatdrop.- Can't fix the blobs. >_> |
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Bigleon |
03:40pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 8 of 21 | |
| It strictly says you can not reproduce it and "Sell" it. It doesn't not say you can hand out masses of free copies of it. | |||
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Nybble |
03:57pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 9 of 21 | |
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Personally, I don't think it ought to be a crime. I believe that my downloading books, movies, games and music is just an act of civil disobedience, as I don't believe in the laws that prevent the free spread of information. Now, this is a large topic and I have a lot of reasons as to why I feel this way, but here are a couple of the few. Information wants to be free. The big media conglomerates attempt to corral whwat their selling with very strict distrobution laws doesn't make sense on a digital context where they don't have to pay for each copy of the thing taken. When little Susy shoplifts, she's stealing the materials and the labor used to make those materials; it isn't only digital. When I torrent a movie, I'm not actively hurting anyone -- no labor went into my movie that wasn't already there and I have not prevented anyone from getting the same movie. Now, you might be saying, "You are robbing the people involved!" First, that's simply not true. There are beneficial things about buying games and movies and music that are not possible when you are pirating them, whether it is special features, album art or online play. If corporations added extra functionality that is contingent on individual registration, the pirates would kvetch, sure, but I think it is totally justifiable. Moreover, the people who are pirates tend to be the ones who consume the most media anyway. I bought the freakin' Buffy complete season pack, I've seen so many movies in theatres, I am the type of person that went on the first day to get the new Blackalicious cd. Regardless of that fact, I think companies need to A. chill and B. learn to innovate. |
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Atte |
05:30pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 10 of 21 | |
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Hmm... I must have messed up with my first posting since it's not appearing... Here goes again: I must admit I use, or used, torrents and other peer 2 peer programs. I don't think it so much as stealing, I think it as spreading cultural things among people. You can get a photo of a painting, why not a copy of a song then? A quote from Wikipedia: "In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. " Doesn't that mean stealing involves the previous owner losing ownership of the thing being stolen. When you copy a movie off the internet, no ownership is lost. The original author doesn't lose his copy. But stealing the DVD from a shop is a bit worse than downloading it, because then you are hurting the shop too, not just the author. And you are taking more stuff, since you're stealing the case and all that supplementary material too. Hence more damage done. I don't think anything can be done about digital theft. And I actualy hope nothing will. There will always be ways to go around DRM technologies. If nothing else, then play it on your CD or DVD player and transfer the image via a wire to your computer. I wonder how on earth are they going to prevent that. Speaking of DRM. I think the all fuzz has gone too far, since not all CDs even play on all legimate players anymore. But the sentence to the 9-year-old girl was way too hard! Take her away from her parents and all!? If that's true, I can't even imagine what they were thinking... To sum it all up: Internet theft is here to stay. Companies and authors just have to adapt to it. |
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Bigleon |
06:05pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 11 of 21 | |
| I think she was 7 but weather she be 7 or seventeen that is way to harsh. | |||
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AZERT |
09:54pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 12 of 21 | |
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I've also seen cases where the RIAA has suggested that college students drop out or go to community college to pay the fees. Again, the RIAA is a greedy machine that basically preys on the weak to "make examples" of copyright violators, not to mention that ill-informed piraters are more easily caught (aka using Kazaa instead of Isohunt). Frankly, if the RIAA really wanted to stop piracy.. they should look at the root of the problem: Overpriced merchandise, as well as inferior quality. I buy every good CD there is... and only pirate songs that are not available as singles or on iTunes. I also prefer buying DVDs to pirating them. Kevin |
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Bigleon |
10:33pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 13 of 21 | |
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I'll be honest, I've pirated 1000's of songs. Day after day, and at least 20+ movies. But the thing is, that if i took time i could listen to any Online radio that streams music and get the music same way I would a had gotten if i had taken the time to make a mix tape from radio. It just makes it easier  . I think RIAA just needs to back off and understand that their attempts to stop illegal downloads is about as successful as well, teaching a penguin to fly. |
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FaerieGirl |
10:44pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 14 of 21 | |
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-Part 1- Out of the possibly delicate issues we could touch in this forum, I think this is the most delicate one: copyright. Why? Because copyright does not involve laws only - it involves ethics, and that makes it even more difficult. Before I go on to my own opinion, I'd like to make some comments to the posts that are on the thread already: Atte: I have used P2P programs as well, so I have to share my position with yours; however, I think that spreading cultural things among people is an euphemism for copyright infringement. I want to live in a World where everyone has access to arts and culture - however, how do we expect to have artists (and not only artists, because intellectual property also comprehends scientists and creators in general) when it's not profitable for them to work for hours without getting paid? Copyright infringement goes beyond theft, and I think that's why the definition from Wikipedia is flexible enough for anyone to justify the infringement itself; however, the truth is that we can't ignore the already-existing legislation on it. Copyright translates into the authority each author has to decide what will be done with his work. Some authors want their work to be totally open to public for anyone to be able to use it as he or she pleases (public domain); some others leave their works open for public reproduction or usage as long as they are recognised as authors of the work (CC, some rights reserved) and others keep full commercial rights over their works (C, all rights reserved). Most mainstream authors have this type of copyright protection. P2P sharing can be considered 'sharing of culture' when the author has no problems with it (public domain, some rights reserved); however, it's a direct infringement of the law when the author has full rights over the work. I do think that something can be done about digital theft and, even if it will make life more tedious for many of us, I actually hope it will happen. |
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FaerieGirl |
11:09pm Apr 2, 2007 EST | 15 of 21 | |
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-Part 2- Cyric: If you check out most mainstream intellectual works (a music CD, a DVD, your Microsoft CDs, a photograph, a choreography, paintings, etcetera), you will find its license, and it will most probably say "all rights reserved". "All rights reserved" covers the ownership that the author has over the work, its reproduction (meaning you can't use that great song by x mainstream band for your TV ad without their permission), its distribution (meaning you can't go out and hand out a few CDs with the copied materials on them, no matter if it's for free) and its use with lucrative ends. Nybble: I wish we lived in a World where ALL information were spread freely. Would you take an architectural sketch and hire someone to build the house for you without paying the architects and the civil engineers that worked designing it, though? Would you steal the formula of an antidote against AIDS, produce the medicine and sell it all over the World? We should keep in mind that information and intellectual works do not come only in the shape of music and movies, and that, when something is not profitable, people stop doing it to begin doing things that are more profitable - where do we find room for innovation there? Now, my opinion. I think the only solution to the problem of copyright infringement in the digital environment will take place only when all governments around the World and private investment gather to look for a joint solution, to begin with. Also, I think it's necessary for governments to think of legislation that covers all this. The legislation that covers copyright in non-digital media is not sufficient to cover the one in digital media. I do think that it's great that we can share music, images and video over the net... But I do think that there is no way on Earth we can justify it not only as a legal, but as a MORAL act. |
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Atte |
12:48am Apr 3, 2007 EST | 16 of 21 | |
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Whoa, that's a long post. Well I just have one thing to throw in to the discussion: "How do we expect to have artists when it's not profitable for them to work for hours without getting paid?" We do have free open source software too, even big things like Linux, that is supported by donations and other sources of income. It also requires less people working on the product fulltime because vouleneteers can edit the code too. We wouldn't have big Linux companies like Red Hat if it wasn't profitable. |
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Bigleon |
01:45pm Apr 3, 2007 EST | 17 of 21 | |
| Well you pay for quality. Like if you really like the band, you go pay for an over priced ticket. Or if you wana see a movie in big screen you go to a movie theator, these artist are still getting plenty paid. Seesh, we'd have nothing if we treated artist like they used to in the early time periods. | |||
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FaerieGirl |
02:20pm Apr 3, 2007 EST | 18 of 21 | |
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Atte and Cyric - I do share your opinions somewhat because, after all, most music I get comes from a P2P thing, after all, and I buy only that I really like or that I know is not as mainstream as the other ones. Atte - The cases in which donations get as much income as the direct sales of the intellectual works are few (if they do exist). That's why they had to begin selling songs at 1 dollar, get cards you can use to download music, etcetera. If donations were as effective as sales, most mainstream artists would be doing that right now instead of taking the risk of low CD sales because of copyright infringement in P2P. Now, we're reducing this to music/movies, but they're not the only types of intellectual property. Even if we narrow it to just 'art', we're also speaking about choreographies (and there's A LOT of plagiarism going on here), texts (which is something that could bring an entire new thread), architectural sketches, photography (and all the visual arts based on it)... Cyric - I do the same about quality, but we have to admit that's not justifiable in a society where everyone has to make a living through work. If we lived in a socialist or communist society where all types of work are equally remunerated, we wouldn't even have to buy the works, but we wouldn't have to buy either manual work. Now, we have to be realistic - we don't live in a society like that, so, if the only ones getting paid a lot for the work are those who work with their hands, those working with their mind will stop doing it and will begin working with their hands, too, to make a living. |
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Anu30March |
12:09pm Apr 27, 2007 EST | 19 of 21 | |
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It's too difficult, rather almost impossible to control internet crime.Crime of any kind is always immoral and unethical - be it internet crime or real-life crime. I feel there is little awareness among the masses about internet crime.If they know what kind of things can take place here and what kind of repercussions it can have, then it will be easier to prevent and even deal with internet crime.Laws are not enough in this case.We need to raise people's awareness first. |
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FaerieGirl |
05:56pm Apr 27, 2007 EST | 20 of 21 | |
| I agree partly. Of course raising awareness is essential and I am sure that this point will be covered in any international legislation that arises in the upcoming years, but I think that laws will be the ones that will actually prevent people from continue doing so at first. Sadly, people generally don't act out of good will - like I. I had to make a huge research paper on copyright in the digital media, I want to study something related to humanities, my mum is a philosopher, my uncle is a musician... And yes, I know I buy the original CD or movie if I know it's not mainstream or if I really like it a lot, but I do download some other things freely. It sucks and hopefully I'll stop soon <.<, but yeah. I think that the only way many of us will stop doing it will be when these laws are actually implemented. | |||
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Anu30March |
10:02pm Apr 27, 2007 EST | 21 of 21 | |
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Of course, laws and legislations are important.But people need to be aware of these laws first, so that these laws can actually work.The problem arises when many people aren't even aware of the laws that cover internet and cyber crime.Hence, according to me, we first need to make people more aware of internet crime including the laws that cover it. Otherwise, whatever you said was right and I agree. |
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